Conversation with a Socialist Debater

From a Facebook group called Christians and Atheists.

My Question: A question for atheists. If we look only at the teachings of Jesus that emphasize compassion, forgiveness, non-retaliation, and concern for the vulnerable, do you see any of those as ethically mistaken? Or would you say those particular teachings are fine (or even admirable) once the divinity claims are removed?

Discussion: Economics, Human Nature, and Faith

@SocialistDebater

He condoned slavery and confirmed the Levitical Law as the law forever until the heavens and earth pass away. He believed demon possession was real. So, that part is problematic. He was kind of all over the place with his teachings, tbh.

Mike Kelly

@SocialistDebater, is there anything you like about his teachings?

@SocialistDebater

Mike Kelly, all the communistic teachings attributed to him are pretty good.

Mike Kelly

@SocialistDebater, I'm guessing you're speaking about idealism when it comes to Communism, not actual communism as it's presented itself in the last 111 years or so. I've often said any form of government works great as long as man is not sinful. Am I correct in assuming that you mean a communist ideal where everybody's peaceful, loving, generous, etc.?

@SocialistDebater

Mike Kelly, um. Well, I am a full-on socialist that is definitely tempted by a moneyless, classless, stateless society. We don't have an ideal situation now, so I'm not sure why we would need perfect people for a different economy.

Mike Kelly

@SocialistDebater, yeah it's the ideal that people like. The reality is always different. Is there some model that we can look at that was a classless, stateless, moneyless society or economy? Do you think Human Nature would allow for such a thing?

@SocialistDebater

Mike Kelly, we have seen it on a small scale. There are a few tribes that are egalitarian communist societies today, including the Hadza. Human nature absolutely allows for it.

Do you consider capitalism to be successful? I don't. Look at all the negative outcomes. Human nature doesn't seem aligned for good outcomes with capitalism. It promotes greed and every man for himself.

Anyway, Jesus didn't seem to be a fan of the accumulation of wealth.

Mike Kelly

@SocialistDebater, yeah, I’ve heard the Hadza argument before. They’re a small hunter-gatherer group of just a couple hundred people. In that kind of setting, sharing the kill and not hoarding makes a lot of practical sense, everyone’s related or at least knows each other, and there’s really no way to accumulate much in the first place. It works on that small scale. The trouble comes when people try to take that same model and apply it to millions of strangers. History has tested that idea more than once, and the larger experiments have usually led to shortages, black markets, and a lot of human suffering.

Capitalism certainly isn’t perfect. Greed exists. Inequality exists. Some people act selfishly. Still, when you look at the results, the places that allow people to own things, trade freely, and keep most of what they earn tend to have higher living standards, longer lifespans, more reliable food supplies, and greater innovation than the places that tried to abolish private property. The contrasts: South Korea and North Korea, West and East Germany, Taiwan and Mao’s China are hard to ignore. Capitalism doesn’t eliminate self-interest; it tries to channel it into producing things other people actually want.

As for Jesus, He wasn’t laying out an economic system. He did warn that wealth can easily become an idol and that it’s hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom. That’s a matter of the heart. The early church in Acts shared what they had, but it was voluntary. When Ananias and Sapphira lied about their gift, Peter confronted the lie, not the amount they kept. Scripture also speaks about honest work, providing for your household, and not being idle. The parable of the talents rewards those who multiply what they were given. Jesus spent time with tax collectors and wealthy people. He celebrated Zacchaeus’s free decision to make things right and give to the poor, He didn’t demand it.

I don’t put my faith in markets. I just prefer systems that feed people and leave room for real, voluntary generosity over systems that promise equality and often deliver scarcity and force instead. Human nature is complicated, and any system that ignores that tends to run into trouble.

@SocialistDebater

Mike Kelly, oh, people would still own things. We would still have personal property, like your clothes and home and vehicle. We would not have private property like multiple rental homes.

Capitalism is a hoarding society and we see how damaging hoarding is.

The examples you gave are not moneyless, classless, stateless societies. We don't, to my knowledge, have an example of actual communism on a large scale. Working or not working. We do have examples of capitalism failing and dictatorship failing.

I would rather have forced: healthcare for all, food for all and housing for all than people dying for lack of funds. Capitalism THRIVES on scarcity! That is a major part of why capitalism looks the way it does.

Communism doesn't ignore human nature. It just has a superior way to ensure all of society thrives as opposed to Capitalism. Under communism we wouldn't have nearly 2 million people incarcerated, 750,000 without housing or 48 million hungry people.

Jesus said all kinds of conflicting things. Why did you ask if there was anything I liked about what's attributed to him only to argue with me about it?

Mike Kelly

@SocialistDebater, I'm really not arguing with you about it. I am simply probing your answer. I'm asking questions because I don't pretend to know it all. I can look things up and often do. Just can't find any way that the system works with the nature of man being what it is. Like I said, I am supposing that you're speaking about an ideal, not something that could actually be achieved. I mean that is what you're talking about right? An ideal? No need to go into anything at length, just kind of a yes or no on whether or not it's an ideal that you're speaking of.

@SocialistDebater

Mike Kelly, I believe a socialist society is 100% possible. I have become convinced that a communist society is also 100% possible. I don't see any reason for those economic systems to give worse outcomes than capitalism. Can you give me an example of how it "won't work" for workers to own the means of production (socialism)? Can you give me a reason why a classless society "won't work" (communism)?

I definitely don't mind having a conversation, I just couldn't see how it related to the original post.

Mike Kelly

@SocialistDebater, yeah we may be way off subject and I do apologize for that. I get sidetracked. I engaged you because you seem like an open person that is honest. That's rare these days. I hope I'm the same. Please don't take my words as argumentative. The goal I have in mind is just to come to an understanding. You see I've never had a conversation with someone who believes the things that you do who appears to be honest and fairly unemotional. There's often too much name calling involved on Facebook and other places.

To answer your question directly about how and why I don't think it would work would be "Human Nature".

I know that sounds very simple but I guess I should give you a couple reasons to explain. Let's take Christians for example. We don't agree with one another on many things. I agree that the Common Core would teach the idealistic view of a perfect love and harmony. The reality is it hasn't worked that way in 2000 years.

Let's say we throw out all the Christian values and come up with a set of guidelines that a majority of people agree with. There will always be those who do not agree. There will be those that start out agreeing and later find out they don't like the way things are working out for them personally and change their minds.

At that point we're left with only a few options. You can exile, imprison, or execute those who do not agree. Maybe there's other options I'm missing and if so please feel free to let me know your thoughts.

This is how it has always ended up in countries that have tried it. At least I can't think of any one country where it has worked. Again we're not talking about that tribe. We're talking about large scale implementation. How do you see it working out? That's my real question I suppose.

@SocialistDebater

Mike Kelly, rehabilitation would be the fourth option and I agree with those other 3 being options.

Communism has never been attempted on a large scale. We just don't have any historic data to look at. In that way, it would be trying something that has mostly existed in the philosophical realm, other than small tribes that don't live how we want to live.

I think a lot of the popular thought is that there would be a movement towards socialism and then keep moving towards communism. It seems to me that we could move to socialism rather "quickly" if we wanted to. It could be done peacefully or by war. I prefer a peaceful change and I'm okay with a slower pace as long as there is movement.

I think one could argue that the US Military is socialist. I also know individual companies that operate in a socialist way.

I just dont see any reason not to embrace socialism now. Or at least healthcare, food, housing and education for all. Especially as AI is going to lead to a great deal of unemployment. Even billionaires have admitted we will probably need a UBI.

In America under capitalism, we have the highest percentage of the population incarcerated in the world, iirc. Doesn't that prove that capitalism doesn't work due to human nature? We would not have that level of incarcerated under socialism or communism.

Mike Kelly

Question about "Communism has never been attempted on a large scale": Do you mean it has been attempted but never achieved in its ideal form? I don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand, as history has seen many large-scale attempts that ended poorly for the people involved. Dictatorships using communist nomenclature (USSR, Maoist China) built massive, centralized state apparatuses, but they never achieved that "stateless, classless" end state. I'm back to my human nature thought as to why every attempt gets stuck in authoritarian state control. Any idea how a system could realistically overcome that human drive for power?

Comment about "the US Military is socialist": As a 23-year Air Force veteran (retired 24 years now), I see it a bit differently. Taxpayer funding aside, the military operates as a strict hierarchy, not a worker-managed democracy. Rank, pay, responsibility, and living conditions vary significantly. Outside of field conditions in a war zone where necessity levels the playing field, it’s about as far from egalitarian as it gets.

Comment on UBI: Yes, Elon Musk and others have talked about UBI, largely as a response to AI and automation doing the heavy lifting in the future. That kind of post-scarcity model might shift things, but I still share the concern that human nature resists absolute equality—people naturally seek distinction, efficiency, or personal gain.

Comment on Capitalism and Incarceration: I looked into the numbers, and I grant that the US has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world. However, looking globally, capitalism doesn't seem to be the defining cause. Deeply capitalist nations like Japan (~36 per 100k), Germany (~77 per 100k), and Norway (~55 per 100k) have fractionally tiny prison populations compared to ours. Meanwhile, per 100k, Cuba sits near the very top of global rates, with Russia around 300.

In my view, America’s numbers reflect specific policy and sentencing choices rather than free-market economics itself. Additionally, reporting in totalitarian or highly centralized regimes often obscures internal exile, labor camps, or political detention that doesn't show up in standard prison metrics. The over-the-top brutal conditions in these countries likely lower the numbers as well.

As always, these are just my thoughts, not an argument in the nasty sense. I appreciate the civil dialogue and am just sorting things out and listening!